If you like Sony and tapeless (DVD-less) hard drive acquisition for $600-$1000, wait on buying a camera. That is all I can say.

[edit]Previously thought it was going to be HD. Now it's much less appealing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: joren,

Oh c'mon now! You can't just leave us hanging with that!

You expected tapeless storage in HD for under $1000? Wow... technology's not moving that fast. How much is the Pana P2 camera? $6k?

Well it's their new format...AVCHD if I remember correctly? Supposed to be recording to SD cards and miniDVD discs, but then it would only equal about 15 minutes max on a 1 gig card. Long term shooting wouldn't be feasible so maybe I'm wrong on how they'll be stored but I'm pretty sure thats the new format. I don't know how long it can record on the miniDVD discs though.

This has been announced by both Sony and Panasonic.

-Kegan

*I hope thats what joren was talking about, otherwise this post was a complete waste*

Also, if it's Sony, it will probably be compatible only with other Sony products, or maybe even nothing at all. God, I love Sony. I can't wait for the upcoming Blu-Ray War.

Yes, but BOTH Sony and Panasonic are releasing this format, which means Sony can't keep it for their products alone.

-Kegan

quote:

Supposed to be recording to SD cards and miniDVD discs,

Consumer junk, most probably...

I wouldn't expect this to be usable for semi-serious or serious production. Probably OK for home video of the kids. Cameras that record in highly compressed formats like the mini DVD discs are unacceptable for intensive use.

Does it really matter? Stuff is shot on all kinds of different formats as it is...

As for those mentioned, P2 technology is extremely promising, but it simply does not offer enough storage capacity to be viable for the low budget filmmaker. Hopefully this will be remedied soon. And the current 2000+ dollar price tag for one 16-gig P2 card sets the practical price of the camera at something more like 8000-10,000+, not including the laptop you'll most definately want to have to offload that footage, seeing as one 16-gig P2 card only stores about 16 minutes of footage at 1080i HD. However, once prices drop and these cards' capacities increase, the advantages of the technology will start to shine through. Having true overcrank and undercrank, as well as the novel pre-record, is truly enticing.

Yeah, but I think what Evan was trying to get at was miniDVDs use the mpeg2 codec to compress the footage as it records it. Have you ever tried to import one of those into an NLE? It's pretty hard and often times impossible without re-encoding the file. The quality is already compressed, so editing and then re-compressing just lowers the quality even more.

miniDVD cameras are cameras that are for the parent or soccer mom who doesn't want to do any editing, and just wants to pop a DVD into a player and watch it without having to connect the camcorder to the TV.

I agree with you on P2 technology and many of us can't afford an HVX and the related items that need to be purchased. P2 may very well be the future in terms of tapeless recording for the prosumer and film maker, but AVCHD might be the ticket for great looking consumer footage. Maybe, AVCHD will be THAT good that it can even start to be considered prosumer, but I doubt that.

-Kegan

quote:

Have you ever tried to import one of those into an NLE?

I've only done it successfully without a re-encode in Vegas.

I can't wait for reasonably priced tapeless recording.

Hmm, I've tried it in Premiere Pro, but maybe the settings were wrong. I never really could get into Vegas, so I don't really know.

-Kegan

Did it work in Premiere?

It imported, but it was really sluggish and I have 2 gigs of RAM in my computer, so its not as if my computer didn't meet the specifications. It wouldn't let me edit down to the seconds as it kept sticking. That's just one experience I've had so maybe my claims are unfounded.

-Kegan

P2 will probably become the new digital recording standard until we have hard drives big enough to accomodate days' worth of HD video (and that may only be a few years away). Just treat a P2 card as you would a valuable roll of film: Be conservative in shooting, rehearse before filming, don't forget to stop recording after you finish a take, etc.

It seems to me P2 is almost a guaranteed revolution. No more taping over stuff, no more scratching tape or dropping frames, no more rewinding or tape-chewing. In a few months, I'm buying a new editing system and the HVX, and I'll never pick up a miniDV tape again. By the way, has anyone used the HVX? Joren, if anyone here has any experience with it, I would expect it might be you. Nearly every review I've read has been positively gushing, but I'd like to hear firsthand from someone who knows.

Harris - I'm not sure what you mean. The space on a P2 card is limited - much more so than a hard drive. If you want to record direct to disk, the technology is there now. I'm not sure about the exact implementation for HD or with the HVX (I only stick one toe in the video water - I try to stay out as much as possible), but it's definitely doable.

Also, some caveats: The HVX is apparently 8 bit (DVCPRO50). 4:2:2 is good but 8 bits knocks it back somewhat.

As counterintuitive as it sounds, solid state recording is much more like film than video, at least in workflow: pop in the card, record it, replace it. There's no tape blacking, overwriting, etc. If you want to avoid the oppression of tape, you can shoot film No skipped frames, no gunked up tape heads, and no rewinding.

I hate rewinding.

All in all, the HVX200 will definitely have its uses. For my purposes, spending $6k for a video camera is completely unjustifiable. I could produce a 16mm feature for significantly less, and I'd rather not invest so much in a camera...

Well, its much more than just spending $6k on the HVX. If you never want to shoot on a miniDV tape again, you're going to have to make sure that each scene you film is near perfect so you don't have as many takes. P2 cards are expensive as stated before, so shooting a feature would be out of the question unless you really took your time.

I'll try my hand at film one day, but for now I shoot SD. No reason for me to go to HD yet, and once I do it will probably be the HVX or whatever follows it. The DVX does the SD job for me and the following that Panasonic has in the prosumer market is amazing.

-Kegan

okay, so I might have been right the first time--this product might be HD. And, it will also be able to record over 24 hours worth of footage (in lower quality mode). We'll find out July 18th at the press release.

As for the HVX/HDV conversation, I haven't personally used it. Friends of mine have really liked it, but that has pretty much the only sub-$100k hd system they've used. There was a huge test done by some of the most respected prosumer gurus in the HD world. Adam Wilt's writup of it is here (free registration required). Based on the established test parameters, the hvx200 did very marginally. At first I totally discounted hdv based high def cameras. 4:2:0, GoPs, none of that sounded very appealing to deal with in post. But it seems as it's not that bad. Of course you'll get more latitude for color correction and post work with dvcproHD than hdv, but that may not be a big deal for all. As for Evan's 8-bit comment, sure 10-bit floating or 16 solid bits would be great, but you're not gonna find any sub-$100k cams that'll do it (until RED). And yes, I know film scans higher than 8-bit are much cheaper. As for P2 cards: They seem totally awesome, but I'm not sure they'll be the gold standard. I think it'll go more toward internal hard-drive at the consumer/prosumer level. If I were to shoot a project with the HVX200, I would try to do as much direct to hard drive as possible. It just seems like less work later. Plus, as I don't foresee myself buying a HD field monitor anytime soon, I could get a full rez version for playback on a computer monitor. But, yeah. The JVC-HD100 also looks like an awesome machine.

I've used the HD100 and I think it's a great camera, but the stock Fuji lens has vignetting if used like a point and shoot. Pretty complicated but if used properly it produces great results.

-Kegan

Kegan said:

quote:

...shooting a feature would be out of the question unless you really took your time.

Features are being shot on the HVX right now. If you have two cards and an extra hand for transfer, it's not a big deal at all.

Evan, I'm not really sure what you mean either. I was saying until we have capable, affordable hard drive cameras, P2 is the best thing out there for digital video. As for my prediction, it may have already been invalidated if Joren is right about a hard drive HD Sony for less than a grand.

We'll see...

Also, Joren, I'm not clear on what you're saying in your post about the HVX and HDV. I don't think you're implying this, but, for the record, the HVX does not record HDV. And forgive my ignorance; what is RED?

Yeah, I've been wondering about the RED thing, as well. It must be one of the many new things that came out while I was out of the country.