I have a friend who is going to be applying to a film school in a few months and needs to start a portfolio. He wrote a script and wants to shoot it this summer. He doesn't know a lot of things and is trying to read as much as he can to learn about camcorders. He has a budget around $3,000 for a camera.

He know he wants a camera that will look as close to a movie shown in theaters quality. I dunno how close he can come to this with a $3,000 budget. What things does he need to really look for in a camera, that he may not know? He also wants a camera that stays really still, meaning if he move his hand while filming the picture it won't shake and it will remain still when you watch it.

He also is concerned with audio. How do the on board microphones work and what audio accessories does he need to think about? I found the XL2 for $1900 here http://www.digitalliquidators.com/detail.asp?pid=cnxl2&l=DigitalSaver&ds_ref_key=BEHDCCDOIOGDGIA

Another thing is I see a lot of cameras have a PAL version for around $500 more. What is PAL?

Does anyone know if this site is trustworthy? Is there a better camera out there?

Can anyone suggest some good cameras and maybe the best place to purchase them? I checked out Fotoconnection.com and they seem to have good prices, but I dunno how reliable the place is.

Thanks guys.

stop looking where you are looking. these places tend to sell cameras with missing parts that you havw to buy seperate from them at mark up, or unwarantied gray market items...if it looks to good to be true, it is. A flashy website tends to hide the fact that most of these places are located in small warehouses around the bronx....youd never buy as camera from the storefront, so why should you online?

Having said that, Theres a few things to talk about here. First of all, if hes so concerned about the "film look", the XL2 will do it but for $4300 (in the real world :-)). Look at the Panasonic DVX-100A, its near to the $3K mark now. Try www.bhphotovideo.com for real accurate pricing. You may be able to find better deals, but you can use them as a benchmark.

Re: the steady hand thing...thats a big mistake. he needs a tripod, no question. Dont hand hold your cam unless there is a reason for it in the shot. I just finished saying in another post how necessary a good tripod is - dedicate 150 or so to that, a good bogen-manfrotto fluid head will do wonders for the professional film-feel.

PAL is the video standard in Europe, Asia, and various other parts of the world (we are NTSC, so is Japan among others). There is also SECAM...but the point is that it is basically a different video standard. Much like the cameras we talked about shoot at a different framerate for the film look (24 frames per second, versus 30 on NTSC), PAL uses a different frame rate as well (and a different refresh rate). PAL cameras shoot at 25 frames per second. Being that it is so close to 24, PAL cameras can achieve a close version of the film look. But given the 24p options out that isnt the case as much anymore. They cost more because they are generally imported since PAL is not the standard here.

I would spend the money on a cam and some gear as well, like the tripod mentioned and a mic like you mentioned (get a good shotgun mic, again b and h is a good place to look), take a look at the canon GL2 as well for a lower priced good camera. It isnt 24p but it is a 3CCD cam that does look very good. There's also the sony vx-2100. Take a look at them and post back questions.
Hope that helps.

Thanks Jeff.

He is definately going to get a tripod, there is no question. However, there will be times he wants to use it without it and wants the picture to remain steady. He also wants the option to make it shake, depending on the shot he is trying to create. Do most cameras in this price range have that?

Are most sites that Cnet.com suggest respectable sites?
http://reviews.cnet.com/Panasonic_AG_DVX100A/4014-6500_7-30790135.html?tag=tab

From what I gather on your description of PAL is that it probably isn't worth the extra money for my friend?

Another thing, is there anything about audio that he needs to know before he makes a decision?

A new XL2 is worth about $5000. However, it's broken down into parts (lens, body, viewfinder, mic, stock, etc.), and sometimes sites will sell ONLY the body. $1900 sounds about right for the body, so investigate this site thoroughly, call them, email them, before buying anything. You may be getting half a camera.

I own an XL1s which I bought on ebay (used) for a little more than $2000. Color definition is fantastic, and every aspect of your filming can be controlled manually, which is a must. The XL2 is a more refined camera, more adaptable and fully replete with filmy flourishes, but it's out of my price range, and only bastards own them.

Tell your friend to consider the Sony HDR line. The cameras are new, so plenteous reviews are not yet in; the 3CCD HD quality sounds promising, though, and Sony does make a mean camera. Their customer service is dishonorable, and they're plagued with compatibility issues, but they do make a mean camera.

And your friend wants a camera that "stays really still?" The XL2, like most all prosumer cameras, has a "steady" feature, but it can look amateurish if there's a lot of movement. I would suggest investing in a tripod.

As for the factory mic on my XL1s, it's the best factory mic I've seen. I use it a lot, but for talky talk movies, it's best to get a mic on a boom or something equally fancy.

Oh, and PAL is the European video format. NTSC is what we use in the States. The difference is in the aspect ratio (and probably some other stuff that I don't understand and don't care about).

I mostly rehashed what someone already said. I guess he posted while I was typing.

Apologies for wasting your time.

quote:

Originally posted by Harris:
$1900 sounds about right for the body, so investigate this site thoroughly, call them, email them, before buying anything.

STAY AWAY from digitalliquidators! They, as well as amphotoworld, are scam sites. Trust me, just find some customer reviews on it.

First of all Harris, welcome to the board, you gave good advice and said some stuff i didnt so dont be apologizing for the second post

Ok Brad:

Like Harris said, any camera in this range is going to have a really good steady shot on it. Some are better than others (always go for optical image stabilization when possible), the canon GL line does have an incredibly good image stabilizer though, for hand helds in my experience it blows the DVX out of the water, and some others...but in all honesty, i never use it. Ever. If it is on the tripod, it should be turned off (youll get movement that isnt there sometimes from an image stabilizer), and if it is off of the tripod, even if you want a little movement, a steadicam is a better way to go. Unless you are looking for the blair witch look, it is going to distract the audience and get in the way of the shot...so a steadicam allows for the camera to breath a little, just with more control. Read about them and youll understand it a bit more. I'm not detracting from what your friend is looking to do, just giving a little insight on how to go about geting the look hes thinking of a little closer.


Anyway, regarding CNET, well first of all skip their reviews (personally i think cnet has some of the worst, most dated articles out there, they need a new staff really badly). Try camcorderinfo.com for good reviews and news on cams. As far as the sites go on CNET, yes, they all seem to be reputable sellers (note the ratings), however they are all almost exactly the same price. I bet the power price sites were after rebate while some are before. Once you choose a cam, write back here and we can look for a safe place with a good price.

By the way, one more thing to add - once he gets this cam make sure he knows to use pro tapes, something with a dry lubricant. there are a bunch of options, but i use Panasonic PQ's or MQ's. They arent necessarily more expensive (i buy them locally for 3.50 a piece), but pro cams are much more sensitive to getting dirty, and pro head cleanings can be expensive. Whatever he decides to use, dont change brands after choosing one. Your heads will last much much longer.

PAL is only worth the money if you have a use for it, and it doesnt sound like you would have a use for it :-) I think that if you can go 24p, then spend the money on it. If you cant, dont waste the excess cash on PAL, get the cheaper NTSC cam and work with what youve got - the money is better spent elsewhere.

Well, as far as audio goes, theres a lot to know from the production end, but for purchasing a micand such, heres what i'd say (we'll deal with the production stuff when hes going to shoot):

first, make sure you get a good fishpole. Using a good mic and attaching it to a standard boom makes it pointless. A good fishpole will eliminate almost all pole vibration in the mic (in the right hands that is).

Second, again, a good mic is nothing without good headphones. You cant go wrong with a pair of AKG studio phones (99 bucks), but even a $40 pair will get you close enough to hear what is being picked up.

Cables. Critical. If you can get a cam that has XLR inputs, your audio will be that much better. XLR cables cancel out line noise, and your signal will be that much clearer.

Phantom Power: unless the mic has the option to use a AAA battery, all of the mics you will be looking at will need power through the cable. This is called phantom power. If the camera has XLR inputs, it will have phantom power (the DVX has both of these by the way).

Ok, so on to mics. There are a lot of mics out there, and a lot of standard mics too, i think we all have a few personal favorites. But they can be expensive. So lets talk about what kind of mic first. You definitely want a shotgun mic. A shotgun mic is highly directional (very focused range in front of the mic, so dialogue becomes clear), and they are all condenser mics...which is why they need power. a Condenser mic is much more sensitive than a dynamic mic (like a vocal mic) and picks up a much smoother high end as well. There are both stereo and mono shotguns out there. Now, ideally, you should have at least two mics - one for the dialouge (mono), and one for ambient room noise (stereo). In an ideal world, this would yield three tracks of audio that can be mixed later. However, you either need a cam that allows you to record more than two audio tracks simultaneously (the XL2 allows this via an attachment), or an external deck. Alternatively, you can get a mixer, and with a dedicated sound guy (which youll probably need anyway) you can get a decent mix on site of dialogue to background noise. Of course, you can still get away with one mic. If you go stereo, make sure the directionality of the mic is consistent between the actors between shots, or their voices will feel like they are moving between the speakers (sometimes you want this, but its better when you can decide that, not the mic). If you use a mono shotgun, thats fine, you'll get great dialogue, just make sure you run the cam with its stereo mic on and no one talking in the envirnment to capture ambient noise. The track will sound dead without some stereo sound. Theres a lot little things to do with audio, so i wont get too far ahead here.

Anyway, for the mic, most people will agree that a greta mono shotgun is the Sennheiser ME67/K6 (or me66, a shorter version of the same), are a grwat choice. If the mic will be mounted on cam, go with the 66. If it will be on a boom, the 67 is incredibly directional, its like using a zoom for audio. Love it. Of course, it is expensive - so if you have to go cheaper at first, thats fine. For a stereo shotgun, (i tend to use a short stereo mounted to the cam if i use one, augmented by a mono on a fishpole), I have had good luck with the audio-technica AT835ST. Again, expensive, but great. These are just suggestions - anything that is a good name with the specs we mentioned and costs at least 150-200 will yield much better audio than the on camera mic. besides, just getting the mic on a pole and close to the actors, away from the camera noise, is a step in the right direction, even if it is a cheap mic. Just dont sell your audio short

Hope that was clear

Wow, you are the man.

That was so helpful, I appreciate it. I will definately look into these things. Before this info (need to go back and research more now) he was leaning towards the Panasonic AG-DVX100A. It just seems close to the price range he is looking and with all the extras he needs to purchase he probably needs a camera just under $3000.

Another thing Jeff since you're so helpful. I've read on here some of the nicer cameras will come down in price soon, because of the products coming out, which will drive costs down of the older ones. You said that the top end stuff right now will be cheaper just around the corner.

How soon is that corner approaching? He wants to start shooting his script in August, but wants his camera by June so he can get used to it and learn how to use it better.

Jeff - this is another of your posts that I've bookmarked you know Very useful.

If I had $3000 for prod gear I would buy:

(an extreme, lo-fi approach)

If you want the film look: use film. I think this is (or should be) the bottom line for indie shorts. Why? Partly because of the surplus of used super8/16mm cameras on the market. You can pickup a dope 16mm Bolex with three lenses for like $500 any day of the ebay week. Ebay backs everything up, so if you don't get what the seller says you'll get, they'll refund your money and track everything down yourself. Super8 cameras are so cheap its ridiculous, you can pick-up a couple to play around with or to use for second angles. You can even take advantage of their exceptional graininess to build characters with fashionable POV shots, or setup mood and done differently than with the 16mm norm. My hometown hero Guy Maddin has reinvented this approach by the way, check the word.

As for film, super8 cartridge stock is dwindling but still available and afforable, same thing with 16mm - but you'll spend more money on film than on the camera.

Apart from price, a lot of the reason people shoot digital or analog is so that its easier in the editing room. People forget how easy it is to get a lab to scan your film into digital format (and relatively inexpensive for multi-thousand dollar budgets. Most labs can put it in

In my opinion the nicest thing about producing shorts is that they are short:

If you are making a 5-minute film there aren't many reasons why you can't shoot 3:1 - in that case (15 minutes of footage) you can get away with two 11-minute 16mm reels, which is at least affordable with your budget if not cheap.

When it comes to sound you can straight up build your own boom mic stand, and digitally record location sound. Film production mics are kind of overpriced in my opinion, your local music supply shop should be able to find you something that gets a good sound and plugs straight into whatever soundcard/laptop or multimedia recorder system that you might already have (access to, if not ownership of).

If we've learned anything from Robert Rodriguez, there's also nothing wrong with dubbed sound. I'm not afraid to record sound later, especially if its offscreen or intangible.

So far:
16mm Bolex with accessories $600

3 super8 "experiments" $100 (or $10, depends on where you look)

3 super8 cartridges $100 (these prices vary alot I think)

Film $400 (whatever...this depends I guess. 400 would get you two 400 foot reels of high quality color stock, Monochrome is like half that much)
http://www.gassers.com/Sales/16mmfilmstock.html

Recording microphone $150

Soundcard $100 (get your hands on a laptop, portable hardrive) (you can do so many things here instead. In order of price: rent a tape recorde, rent a 4-track recorder, rent a portable digital studio package from said music store etc.)

Other prod gear:

A wheelchair $50 (tracking shots made easy, quick, cheap)

A tripod $30 (tip: make your camera fit by supergluing a metal nut to the camera base, then superglue a matching screw to the top of the tripod - make sure when you mount up that you don't screw a hole into the camera.)

Boom mic rod $10 (you can make this on your own with broomsticks and duct tape. Maybe indulge in one of those "feather-duster" mic filters - for the look at least.)

ps Whatever it is you do, take advatage of your indie situation. Plan, plan, plan. Storyboard, storyboard, storyboard. Especially with a short-medium length I think the movie should exist almost totally within your head/on paper and putting it to celluloid should be a simple(meh...) exercise in realizing that vision. When you are on location or on set you can always make changes, but not going in with a plan just means wasted film and wasted time in the editing room later. I'm a huge fan of mad rehearsals that allow for one-take filmmaking. That's the way Rob Rodriguez would make movies, that's the way Miles Davis, Paul McCartny record albums.

quote:

Originally posted by titaniumdoughnut:
Jeff - this is another of your posts that I've bookmarked you know Very useful.

Hah! thanks TD - and as an aside thanks for pointing out the safari error on my microsite...take a look at it, should be fixed now (however i am adding a dial up sized trailer for download by popular demand...just to lazy).

Fraser, some good film advice in there, i am NOT a film guy and wont even pretend to be, so i'll just let your post stand (although i do disagree with the overpricing of shotgun mics - i shot a short with an AKG c2000 studio mic and while the mic is incredible (1 inch gold sputtered diapraghm), it does not work for this environemt. Good shotguns are worth every penny. Though i definitely second the notion of over dubbing (i do a lot of that too), as well as foley work - which, by the way, i dont use a shotgun for, i use that AKG i was just talking about

The only other thing i would argue with this the fact that you mentioned a $30 tripod...good sticks are critical in my opinion, at the very least you need a good fluid head, and the broomstick fishpole...well i addressed that in my last post. I'm really against those. Its hard to deal with a pop in the audio on your best take because someones hand jiggled the boom. But anyway, welcome to the baord by the way, first time i've run across a post from you.

anyway, Brad - first off, glad to help. No problem. Just keep coming here and post your films here when you get there thats what this board is here for.

I would say the "corner" wont really hit for real until this fall/early next year if i had to guess...however there are already price drops in both the XL2 and DVX post NAB, which just occured a month ago. The prices you are seeing on the DVX are hundreds less than a few months ago. I am pretty sure i saw a rebate on the XL2 as well which puts it under $4K, even on B and H. So the next wave of drops is a ways off. It will come when the HD and HDV cams really hit. There are a few mild successes, like the Sony and JVC offerings, but when the new panasonic HVX and the JVC model, both with 24p, hit this fall/next year, SD cams like the ones we are dicussing will definitely see a price cut.

Point being...if you HAVE to buy a prosumer cam, then now is indeed a good time to buy. But, given that technology always is changing, waiting doesnt hurt. YOu could always rent a cam too for this summer production and save the money. Hell, you could rent the cam you intend to buy to see if you like it. I just recommended on another post yesterday that someone do exactly that - wait. In the end, dont forget that cams, software, and computers are expected to be upgraded every so often.You may not NEED to upgrade, but its a given that you will WANT to upgrade. I guarantee that if you drop $3K on a solid SD (standard definition - as opposed to high def.) cam today (like the XL2 or DVX) two years from now you'll be dying to at least try HD. Five years from now you'll be pissed you cant even do HD. So just make sure it is all kept in perspective. The DVX is a great choice walking into film school like you mentioned, no question. Ive shot a number of my recent projects on a DVX - and while it has its shortcomings, it is a spectacular cam at its current price point.