This movie was kind of plotless and pointless, but I loved it. Not because it was Michel Gondry, I just plain liked it because I did.

Agreed. I thought it was the best film of the year and have been telling everyone so. Gondry is just a genius, and this film just works on multiple levels. It is so endearing and brilliant, I couldn't help but smile througout. It's very funny, and the script is phenomenal, along with the unbelievable creativity of Gondry to incorporate alot of the stop-motion type of animation within the film, into the actual story. Everything fits, and the performances by Bernal and the rest of the cast is really something special. This movie is truly in my top 3, if not my favorite film, and it deserves a viewing from anyone.

I dont mean to be a jerk...but I really don't know why Gondry gets so much credit. He's just an ex-smalltime eastern european music video director who happened to be blessed with the grace of obtaining a screenplay from the TRUE CONTEMPORARY SCREENWRITING GENIUS, Charlie Kaufman. Eternal Sunshine HAD a plot and HAD detailed visuals. However, it was 90% Kaufman and 10% Gondry. GONDRY simply followed it page for page and, as I've read in interviews with the actors, had trouble communicating with his actors verbally and relied heavily on his assistant director. Like I said, I don't mean to be a jerk, but it seems like the ppl who end up directing kaufman's masterworks go on to get this huge, artistic notieriety (honestly, spike jonze is the only one so far who i've seen actually leaving his own directorial imprint on kaufmans work), while kaufman sort of gets the shaft.

I don't know what you're talking about, I've heard many many people (well, people who aren't oblivious) praise Kaufman. I praised him on many occasions and I think he's a ****ing genius. However, I think Eternal Sunshine was a great collaboration between the two. I'm not slighting him in any way, and Gondry may not be a brilliant a director as Kaufman is writer, but I think he left his own unique mark on that film.

And anyway, we're talking about Science of Sleep, not Kaufman. I don't particularly idolize Gondry (look at my first post), and I wasn't sure if I was going to like this movie, but I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Nervous Larry:
However, I think Eternal Sunshine was a great collaboration between the two.

I really don't think it was too much of a collaboration. From what I understand, Kaufman wrote the initial script and it was a contemporary masterpiece, then he wrote a second draft in EXTREME detail for Gondry to shoot. There were no changes to made ot anything...no individual voice expressed beyond Kaufman's words. Gondry was said to have had trouble speaking so that his actors could understand him and relied heavily on his asst. dir. to communicate to them. Eternal Sunshine was Kaufman's...Malkovich and Adaptation were both Jonze and Kaufman's. Screenwriters don't make a film, but if the director merely shoots something that's written down, he's not much of a director...I mean I can identify Scorcese's style and voice (even thoguh his best films were written by schrader and pileggi), I can recognize Jonze's style and voice...and Innarritu's...but I don't think many people can say the same about Gondry. If you read the scripts he's directing from, the visual extravaganza he puts on is simply a word-for-word interpretation of what's written in a detailed script. I think, with the science of sleep being unable to form a compelling story through the abstractness or creating compelling characters, it became apparent just how much Kaufman was actually responsible for in Eternal Sunshine.

I know you didn't say much about loving Gondry, but he seems to have become so reverred and we all know it's simply because he got to direct a Kaufman script.

Maybe he is overrated? But for that matter, Kaufman could have directed Sunshine and they could have given Gondry the boot. The two seem very similar, and just because he can't speak very good english doesn't mean he sucks as a director. As far as communicating, well, I don't know, maybe he isn't an actor's director, though Gael Garcia Bernal seemed to get along with him quite well.

And look at Science of Sleep's aesthetic. It's very close to Eternal. I don't think he got his visual style from kaufman, as kaufman has no visuals. Also important is the WAY he does things. He has a very child like way of creating things in a basic manner without being pretentious. Sort of like Robert Rodgriguez's resourcefullness but with a child like wonderment.

And whatever, no point in arguing anymore. I think Science of Sleep is great for what it is, not because its Gondry or Eternal (for the record I think Eternal is a much much much better film and I like Adaptation. even more than Eternal).

If Jonez put his own visual style into Malkovich, I'd rather Kaufman stick to directors who "don't" like Gondry. Malkovich looked terrible. The only thing going for it were the script and the actors. Eternal Sunshine and Science at least looked gorgeous. Gondry is a creative genius, and despite the fact the he may have stuck to the script, he knows a pretty picture when he sees one. I doubt very much that Kaufman's second draft could have been shot the same by anyone else. I'm not sure how much of his early work you've seen, but I would say Science oozed Gondry's style.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: titaniumdoughnut,

The Science of Sleep wasn't as good as Eternal Sunshine, but I would say that was really the only thing wrong with it. It suffered by comparison but wasn't a bad film by any stretch of the imagination. To say that Gondry didn't contribute much worthwhile to that film is ignorant and pretensious. Kaufman's scripts would be trainwrecks if a bad director got a hold of them.

The Science Of Sleep as directed by Spike Lee (or perhaps Eli Roth)

quote:

Originally posted by braininabox:
The Science Of Sleep as directed by Spike Lee (or perhaps Eli Roth)

Or by Peter Greenaway.

I'm waiting for Michael Bay's version.

Yeah...that way every shot can be like .5 secs long.

Sorry Hall, but you're just completely wrong. Flat out and ridiculously wrong. It's not even that your opinions are poor and the general populus doesn't agree with them (though they are), it's that you're completely making things up. Gondry MAY have shot Eternal Sunshine word for word. Nobody really knows. But they way he shot it was incredible. He used ZERO computer-generated special effects and relied solely on tricks on what you're seeing. For example, one scene where Jim Carrey's character is having a sort of flashback to when he was in a bookstore with Winslets character, the lights above him in the bookstore are shutting off as he walks past and eventually he walks back into the room where he was telling the flashback. I seriously seriously doubt that Kaufman wrote that exact sequence into the screenplay. I'm thinking he wrote in a flashback of some kind, and there's no doubt he's a genius, but Gondry is just a superior director who is widly imaginative and gifted. I also love how you called him an "ex-small time easter european music video director who happend to be blessed with the grace...blah blah blah" more and more horsesh*t! He is one of the most acclaimed and sought-after music video directors in the business having worked for Bjork, Beck, Foo fighters, Kanye West, the video of "Mad World" featured in Donnie Darko, The White Stripes, Kylie Minogue, Radio Head, The Roling Stones, Wyclef Jean, Sheryl Crow, and Lenny Kravitz. These people are also known as - some of the most well known music artists of our time. This kind of blatant retardation really makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my computer and not have to deal with ignorant fools with no eye for what is actually good filmmaking. God Hall, as I read through your posts you must be the single most ridiculous and pretentious person I've seen on this board. You have given falsities as justification for what you're saying. You're a fool, a bad human being, and most of all, a failure. Oh, and I've just noticed, you never even mentioned whether or not you've actually seen the film!!! Have you seen it? Did you know that Gondry Directed AND Wrote it? C'mon man!

Hey you hit 100 posts!!!

quote:

Originally posted by "Fuc*in Fascist!":
Sorry Hall, but you're just completely wrong. Flat out and ridiculously wrong. It's not even that your opinions are poor and the general populus doesn't agree with them (though they are), it's that you're completely making things up. Gondry MAY have shot Eternal Sunshine word for word. Nobody really knows. But they way he shot it was incredible. He used ZERO computer-generated special effects and relied solely on tricks on what you're seeing. For example, one scene where Jim Carrey's character is having a sort of flashback to when he was in a bookstore with Winslets character, the lights above him in the bookstore are shutting off as he walks past and eventually he walks back into the room where he was telling the flashback. I seriously seriously doubt that Kaufman wrote that exact sequence into the screenplay. I'm thinking he wrote in a flashback of some kind, and there's no doubt he's a genius, but Gondry is just a superior director who is widly imaginative and gifted. I also love how you called him an "ex-small time easter european music video director who happend to be blessed with the grace...blah blah blah" more and more horsesh*t! He is one of the most acclaimed and sought-after music video directors in the business having worked for Bjork, Beck, Foo fighters, Kanye West, the video of "Mad World" featured in Donnie Darko, The White Stripes, Kylie Minogue, Radio Head, The Roling Stones, Wyclef Jean, Sheryl Crow, and Lenny Kravitz. These people are also known as - some of the most well known music artists of our time. This kind of blatant retardation really makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my computer and not have to deal with ignorant fools with no eye for what is actually good filmmaking. God Hall, as I read through your posts you must be the single most ridiculous and pretentious person I've seen on this board. You have given falsities as justification for what you're saying. You're a fool, a bad human being, and most of all, a failure. Oh, and I've just noticed, you never even mentioned whether or not you've actually seen the film!!! Have you seen it? Did you know that Gondry Directed AND Wrote it? C'mon man!

Haha. STFU. Gondry's a mediocre music video director who struck it big by getting two Kaufman scripts. Yes, I saw Science of Sleep (and human nature and his stupd fricken short where jim carrey sings elvis in a motor bed)...IT was pretentious. It was all style and zero substance...watch a Michael Bay film for that. YOU are pretentious in claiming him to be a "FAR SUPERIOR DIRECTOR." To whom? You haven't answered whether or not you've read the kaufman script, so give that a go before you talk, because YES...he DID write that sequence (don't you get it? it's HIS imagination...not Gondry's. READ THE SCRIPT). Grow up and educate yourself...I don't mean to revert to the way I was acting before, but seriously, stfu. The excess he creates doesn't mean crap. Just because I've seen enough films to not stand up and jerk everytime I see something visually stimulating doesn't make me pretentious. 40 other music video directors can do everything that he has done OR BETTER (Paul thomas anderson has directed far better music videos and he's not even a music video director). Stop going down on him with blind faith and admiration. It was kaufman's film. Watch a Trufaut or Fellini film...the gorgeous simplicity is 1,000 times more satisfying that Gondry's excessiveness. Science of Sleep proved that he, on his own, is incapable of significantly developing a character. Looks mean zero in the face of incoherency and poor character development.


And I'm not a bad human being. In saying that, however, you proved ot be a very stupid one.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hall,

Hall i know this if off topic but, I have a question for you. Do you know how many times you start your posts with "i dont mean to be a jerk...but"? Just an observation.

Kat

quote:

Originally posted by Hall:

quote:

Originally posted by "Fuc*in Fascist!":
Sorry Hall, but you're just completely wrong. Flat out and ridiculously wrong. It's not even that your opinions are poor and the general populus doesn't agree with them (though they are), it's that you're completely making things up. Gondry MAY have shot Eternal Sunshine word for word. Nobody really knows. But they way he shot it was incredible. He used ZERO computer-generated special effects and relied solely on tricks on what you're seeing. For example, one scene where Jim Carrey's character is having a sort of flashback to when he was in a bookstore with Winslets character, the lights above him in the bookstore are shutting off as he walks past and eventually he walks back into the room where he was telling the flashback. I seriously seriously doubt that Kaufman wrote that exact sequence into the screenplay. I'm thinking he wrote in a flashback of some kind, and there's no doubt he's a genius, but Gondry is just a superior director who is widly imaginative and gifted. I also love how you called him an "ex-small time easter european music video director who happend to be blessed with the grace...blah blah blah" more and more horsesh*t! He is one of the most acclaimed and sought-after music video directors in the business having worked for Bjork, Beck, Foo fighters, Kanye West, the video of "Mad World" featured in Donnie Darko, The White Stripes, Kylie Minogue, Radio Head, The Roling Stones, Wyclef Jean, Sheryl Crow, and Lenny Kravitz. These people are also known as - some of the most well known music artists of our time. This kind of blatant retardation really makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my computer and not have to deal with ignorant fools with no eye for what is actually good filmmaking. God Hall, as I read through your posts you must be the single most ridiculous and pretentious person I've seen on this board. You have given falsities as justification for what you're saying. You're a fool, a bad human being, and most of all, a failure. Oh, and I've just noticed, you never even mentioned whether or not you've actually seen the film!!! Have you seen it? Did you know that Gondry Directed AND Wrote it? C'mon man!

Haha. STFU. Gondry's a mediocre music video director who struck it big by getting two Kaufman scripts. Yes, I saw Science of Sleep (and human nature and his stupd fricken short where jim carrey sings elvis in a motor bed)...IT was pretentious. It was all style and zero substance...watch a Michael Bay film for that. YOU are pretentious in claiming him to be a "FAR SUPERIOR DIRECTOR." To whom? You haven't answered whether or not you've read the kaufman script, so give that a go before you talk, because YES...he DID write that sequence (don't you get it? it's HIS imagination...not Gondry's. READ THE SCRIPT). Grow up and educate yourself...I don't mean to revert to the way I was acting before, but seriously, stfu. The excess he creates doesn't mean crap. Just because I've seen enough films to not stand up and jerk everytime I see something visually stimulating doesn't make me pretentious. 40 other music video directors can do everything that he has done OR BETTER (Paul thomas anderson has directed far better music videos and he's not even a music video director). Stop going down on him with blind faith and admiration. It was kaufman's film. Watch a Trufaut or Fellini film...the gorgeous simplicity is 1,000 times more satisfying that Gondry's excessiveness. Science of Sleep proved that he, on his own, is incapable of significantly developing a character. Looks mean zero in the face of incoherency and poor character development.


And I'm not a bad human being. In saying that, however, you proved ot be a very stupid one.

First of all, thanks for locking this thread... Second of all why do you hate Gondry if he faithfully brought Kaufman's script to life?

Calm down dude. You would make more friends here if you didn't view yourself so highly. We already have an Evan Kubota and he at least doesn't write STFU...

I was about to lock this one, but then some kind of morbid curiosity led me to leave it open, and see what the rest of the forum does with a post like that.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel McLellan:


First of all, thanks for locking this thread... Second of all why do you hate Gondry if he faithfully brought Kaufman's script to life?

Calm down dude. You would make more friends here if you didn't view yourself so highly. We already have an Evan Kubota and he at least doesn't write STFU...

I don't hate gondry...I just get upset when I see people jumping to call him one of the greats, without questioning why the films that have had both visual splendor AND emotional impact aren't written by him...and his work that is just visual splendor, but is lacking on character development or any sort of emotional pull (ie science of sleep vs eternal sunshine) are written by him. He's a good director, but how many other music video directors have we seen who have broken through and created tremendous features on another guy's script? I just don't believe that sipmly because he's brought a kaufman script to life, it ranks him among the PT Andersons, Aronofskys, David Gordon Greens, Von Triers, Tarantinos, Cuarons, Merielles, Lynn Ramsays, l'feurs, and Mir Andersons (the great directors of his generation). I would love to see gondry put out another film as aesthetically and emotionally satisfying as Eternal Sunshine for the Spotless Mind was....but it really seems, in his recent shorts and in the science of sleep, that he relies too much on the voice of others to carry his work. Sciene of sleep was beautiful...it was, however, an incomplete motion picture that lacked character development or any sort of identifiable emotional relation to the characters (this doesn't mean drama, but even Lynch can make you care for his characters...and most of them are just metaphors or caricatures)...I would love to see Gondry step aside from his style to write a script with people we care deeply about first, then form the rest around that. I WANT TO HEAR HIS VOICE...because I know he has one, and I will be critical of his films (as filmgoers shoudl be) until I hear it.

Also...I really don't think highly of myself...I'm just tired of hearing people make these on the spot claims that "this guy is one of the great directors" "this is one of thegreat movies of our age." It just bothers me, because there are so many films out there that so many people don't see, that you can't really say that. I mean who here has seen The wind That Shook the Barley yet...or Adam's Apple...or Inland Empire...or even Half Nelson?? Those were three tremendous films from this past year that many people haven't seen...films made so well...by such great filmmakers...that perhaps your entire outlook on film may be changed by them. Maybe it won't...but you never know. I just hate exclamatory comments...there are no films that are, for fact, "the greatest films ever made," because you'll never find anyone who has seen all the films out there. I just don't understand the Gondry thing the Gondry thing (and maybe that's jsut because I watch so many films and have seen so many different styles and stories and so forth)...I just see so many Gondry's out there, that he doesn't seem too unique to me (which is why I long for him to reinvent himself).

And yes...I am aware of how I normally start my posts, but I really didn't want to be a jerk again. I really didn't. But did you read this guy's post? It was pretty bottom of the barrel. I mean "you're a stupid, bad person," "inflammatory, inflammatory," "This kind of blatant retardation really makes me want to take a sledgehammer to my computer and not have to deal with ignorant fools with no eye for what is actually good filmmaking," I actually feel the same way in reading posts like this, but whatever (and to me, in all honesty, this kind of quote makes me think he hasn't seen many films or tested himself outside his comfort zone as a viewer...film is like wine tasting...you develop your pallette...you learn new things). I mean how can he say "you are completely wrong," but I can't?? How else was I supposed to respond to that? You say "a post liek that," referring to mine, Perry Kroll, but what about his? How well would you have taken it (you probably would have just deleted it). It was far worse, far more abrasive and condescending than anything I've ever written on this forum. But I know how it is...I know where I stand among you guys.

He also accused me of not having factual info to back up my opinions, when his whole backing was "gondry's a far superior director" and "I'm sure kaufman didn't write that sequence." Superiior to who? And yes, Kaufman did write that sequence...read the script. It's free online...in fact, Kaufman's story went far beyond what was seen in the actual film...a lot was left out (and for good reason, because the film worked).

Either way, maybe I just shouldn't post here anymore. I mean I can definitely see how I can come off as confrontational, however I never flame (except for that stfu but that was sort of a joke anyway). I guess I just don't really dig this type of "flame people instead of countering their argument and having a discussion" environment...and you guys obviously don't dig me either. I already appologized and tried to retract my actions, but that was apparently not enough for a freakin' internet message board to forgive me. So I'm sorry for disrupting the flow of things here. I'll leave you guys alone.

However, I would like to reccomend that some of the posters here do try to expand their viewing and see some films they've never heard of...to try to challenge themselves and discover new things. You grow through film...it's a true experience. I mean take ten hours out of your week and watch the entire Dekalog...rent a l'feur film and a dardette's film and a traufaut film and just sit back and let them wash over you. Gather all of Bergman's films together and WATCH THE MAN ACTUALLY GROW...creatively and socially mature...right in front of you as you watch his work. Watch ratcatcherandget sucked into its mild, poetic languour...

There's just so, so much more beyond children of men and the science of sleep.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Hall,

To each his own.