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The Dark Knight

Effective marketing is certainly not cultural influence. Where is the impact of this film seen?

For example, when Pulp Fiction came out there was a litany of references in pop media whether it was Royal with Cheese or the crazy dance sequence constantly being spoofed. Not to mention a string of rip-offs that featured pop-culture dialogue and jumbled timelines. Or the bazillion student films that features a drug-deal gone bad or a hero with a heart of gold. Or the reinvention of the idea that a director can sell a movie if he is treated and acts like a rock star. One can honestly look at the industry pre-Pulp and Post-pulp (yes I even sicken myself sometimes.)

Batman has had no impact, it will have no impact because it is at it's core a derivative genre, featuring themes that have already been explored in far better ways. There was nothing experimental or relevant going on in the film aside from a star dying. So unless studios are going to start knocking off stars to build hype this movie is simply a summer blockbuster.

Batman made money, end of story. A simple pleasure for simple minds.
 
There also might be competition from Revolutionary Road - never count Sam Mendes out. With that film's pedigree (Mendes, DiCaprio, Winslet, and Richard Yates' base material) it's a real contender. Of course, I might be biased because I work for the film's producer...

And agreed about Good Will Hunting and Van Sant.
 
Effective marketing can ABSOLUTELY have a cultural influence. Our culture is saturated with marketing. We're a market-based society, for Pete's sake!

And again, the film's been out for 3 weeks - influence often takes time. I think the film will show the industry that audiences or not only OK with a truly dark and serious blockbuster, but will pay out the nose for it. It will make the industry and its filmmakers more apt to mix popcorn fare with intensely dramatic and relevant themes. It will make many of the cinematically illiterate more keanly aware of the power and superiority of a good performance over, say, a good special effect. And the film will certainly inspire many young prospective filmmakers (this one it's already doing).

But if you want to reduce cultural influence to mere pop-references, then fine. "Why so serious" has already entered the cultural lexicon, and I don't think most people who see the movie will ever look at a pencil quite the same again.

Time will tell just how deep The Dark Knight will bury itself into our culture. I'm saying that to assign it zero influence is just laughably wrong.

RED, you also assert that the film features themes that have been explored far better. Where, exactly? I find it quite two-faced (pardon the pun) of you to make these assertions and in the same post use Pulp Fiction (a film utterly devoid of original content and thematic depth and made by a filmmaker who is the model of the post-modern pastiche 'artist') as the brunt of your argument.

And would you call someone like, say, Roger Ebert simple minded?
 
"Effective marketing can ABSOLUTELY have a cultural influence." Not in of itself it can't. (See i can talk fancy) If marketing was the only thing needed, Speed Racer would have had an impact. Dollars don't equal worth, marketing gets the word out but if there is nothing really being said then it just fades into the background.

Secondly, "Why so serious?" has simply not infililtrated the lexicon as say "We're gonna need a bigger boat." and I agree time will tell, but honestly I think "I drink your milkshake." has had more play in a very short amount of time.

As for Pulp Fiction, while the themes were rehashed the storytelling was grounbreaking. Not my favorite film by any means but as an example of a film with major cultural influence I think it's fair to use.

And finally the larger themes of Batman that included the duality and symbiotic nature of good and evil have been present since the begining of storytelling. From the Bible to No country for Old men it's not exactly new ground and I'm shocked that anyone would think Batman 2 did it best.

And I won't comment on Roger Ebert as I try to think for myself.
 
So true.

OWNED.

This is a fun thread to watch. I'm rootin' for you Cinematical.
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Me too! who's he fighting with?

oh.

As for who did evil better than Ledger

Jack Nicholson did evil best. In the Shining.
Or how about Tom Berenger in Platoon
or Malcolm McDowell in Clockwork Orange
or Scar in The lion king (whoops!)
or Al Pacino in the Godfather 2
or The head Nurse (actress?) in One Flew over the cukoos nest
or Anthony Perkins in Pshyco
or Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the lambs
 
Wouldn't that be awesome after all that, I said I didn't see the movie. But in fact I did. From the absurd "with cell phone singals I can see everything" gimmick to the rousing performance by Eric Roberts (r u serious!) I was subjected to downtown Chicago as Gothom.

And I stand by all those movie villans as better than Ledger's performance.
 
I don't mind when you say you don't like the film itself... I'm glad you have your own opinions... but really? You honestly feel that THE NURSE (Louise Fletcher, I wanna say...) from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was a better villain that Ledger's Joker? To me, that seems like negativity for the sake of negativity. You're the only person I've come across that feels that way.

But, I'm curious... sorry if I completely divert this thread... but what are some of your favorite films? I'm expecting them to be darn near perfect, too, if you're citing a minor character's performance and a small plot detail (which I happen to think was adequately set up and a pretty effective mechanism) as reasons you dislike this film.
 
Hmmm...the sexually-repressed control-freak Nurse Ratchet (played by Ellen Burstyn) or the unequivocally evil bone-chilling psychotic Nurse Joker? Maybe Darryl Hannah's nurse in Kill Bill was more evil than Heath's Joker, too.
 
Fair enough! I really love the follwing films! Not in order

There Will Be Blood, Fargo, Rushmore, Goodfellas, Jaws, Back to the Future (say what?), Rocky, Die Hard (yes I know) Annie Hall, 12 Monkeys, Stand By Me, Good Will Hunting, Sweet Sixteen (Ken Loach film), Edward Scissorhands, The Prestige (partly why the Dark Knight disappointed so much!) The Professional (Luc Besson's) Unforgiven, Trainspotting and of course Raging Bull.

I pointed out the small details before to prove to Karen I saw the film. And yes Nurse Ratchett is a superbly subtle portrayal of evil, no make up required.
 
Heath Ledger's Joker > Jack Nicholson in the Shining, Tom Berenger in Platoon, Scar in The lion king, Al Pacino in the Godfather 2, The Head Nurse in One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, Anthony Perkins in Psycho

Heath Ledger's Joker =(at least) Darth Vader and Anthony Hopkin's Hannibal Lector

It's very easy to make the argument that Heath Ledger's Joker deserves to be included in the elite ranks of cinema's greatest villians, up there with Hannibal Lector and Darth Vader. Indeed, many audiences and critics have done exactly that. Personally, I think he outclasses them all and stands alone, with Anthony Hopkins, James Earl Jones/David Prowse, and Javier Bardem right below him.

As for the lines...come on, comparing "Why so serious" to "I think we're going to need a bigger boat" is just unfair. That's one of the most iconic lines from one of the most influential and iconic movies ever made!

And you can't possibly use the argument that becuase the film's themes have been done before it becomes irrelevant. If that's the case, then every film ever made is irrelevant. I didn't say The Dark Knight did those big themes best, but simply that it did them well. Besides, I found some of the less grand thematic elements to be the most engrossing: the narcissistic nature of heroism, the tenuous balance between order and anarchy, the incapacitating power of despair, and the questioning of the assumed superiority of truth.

Many very intelligent people find a great deal in this film that is both entertaining and thought provoking. Granted, many very unintelligent people love the film because Batman flips a semi-truck with the batpod. But isn't it beautiful that both are true?
 
Hmm... we have surprisingly very similar taste. I haven't seen Sweet Sixteen, The Professional, or Unforgiven... so I guess I'll have to put those on my list.

Okay... you guys can go back to the... discussion, now.
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Originally posted by Cinematical:
Heath Ledger's Joker > Jack Nicholson in the Shining, Tom Berenger in Platoon, Scar in The lion king, Al Pacino in the Godfather 2, The Head Nurse in One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, Anthony Perkins in Psycho

Heath Ledger's Joker =(at least) Darth Vader and Anthony Hopkin's Hannibal Lector
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wow.

Ok well this is where we have such a massive divide that we simply will never be able to close the distance.

"And you can't possibly use the argument that becuase the film's themes have been done before it becomes irrelevant"

I never said the themes were irrelevent, you asked me to name some films that have explored the themes better.

Remeber when you said "RED, you also assert that the film features themes that have been explored far better. Where, exactly?"

So I answered. The Dark Knight brought nothing new to the table.

"Many very intelligent people find a great deal in this film that is both entertaining and thought provoking."

Again I simply disagree.
 
Originally posted by hoohaProductions:
Hmm... we have surprisingly very similar taste. I haven't seen Sweet Sixteen, The Professional, or Unforgiven... so I guess I'll have to put those on my list.

Okay... you guys can go back to the... discussion, now.
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Click to expand...

The Professional is amazing. It's also called Leon directed by Luc Besson. truly a great movie, Get it asap!
 
I didn't mean to imply that you meant the themes were irrelevant, but that you suggested the movie was because it simply rehashed those themes.

And my response is that no movie has ever brought anything new to the table, if you include things as extensive as the bible and Shakespeare. It's not THAT a film produces new, but how it portrays and explores a particular theme. And I think it explored the themes I mentioned in a more thoughtful and cohesive manner than most other films. And if you know of some specific films that do them better, I'd really like to know (cause I want to watch 'em!)

And you might disagree that there is material that is thought provoking, but you can't disagree that there are people who do find the material thought provoking. Your opinion doesn't make others' irrelevant.
 

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