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The Dark Knight

I'm sure people find it thought provoking. That wasn't the part I was disagreeing with.

I'm of the opinion that people can be wrong.

And as for films that explored your themes better:

"the narcissistic nature of heroism" Raging Bull

"the tenuous balance between order and anarchy" Clockwork Orange"

"the incapacitating power of despair" Children of Men

questioning of the assumed superiority of truth: The Prestige

Me and Cinematical are just trying to see who can get thier post count to 700 first!
 
haha. Hey, what you said up there is interesting...

Are you under the impression that you could be wrong as well? Because, I'm thinking about it... and the fact that everyone else I've talked to agrees that Joker is one of the top 3 villains of all time makes me consider the possibility that maybe... you're wrong. Just something to think about, I guess
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Raging Bull: that's more the narcisism of drive and passion. The Dark Knight handles a more classical conception of heroism, which it certainly does better.

Clockwork Orange: here I can agree, and there was certainly some inspiration going on.

Children of Men: Ooh, very interesting. I love this movie. This film definately does dispair very well, and for some reason I feel I worded this theme incorrectly, but can't quite think of a more appropriate way to put it. For now, conceded.

The Prestige: While questioning truth is indeed a part of this film, The Dark Knight does it better by incorporating it into more complex moral and social contexts. In the TDK, Nolan examines truth at varying levels, from the personal (Bruce Wayne's and Harvey Dent's struggle with purpose and identity), to the expansive (lying to the public in order to protect it, the Joker' chillingly compelling logic). This is a reocurring theme in Nolan's work, and he's brought it to a new level with The Dark Knight.
 
REDking: You give examples of movies that do a specific part of The Dark Knight better and you gave examples of villains that did a specific part of evil better. For me, The Dark Knight embraced all of the aspects of each of those movies and Heath Ledger all of the facets of evil personified by other good actors. The Dark Knight, with Ledger's Joker, is the WHOLE PACKAGE!
 
Thanks guys for keeping this argument civilized and respectful.
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I will add that at far as villains are concerned, Darth Vader is epically and untouchably evil.
 
Brain, please. Who even was the actor who played Darth Vader? You mean the voice of James Earl Jones? A more evil portrayal than Heath's? Can't we all just acknowledge Heath's performance as epic evil?
 
Episodes IV and V make him great, but I always trip over that fact that I know he isn't actually all evil and that eventually he becomes the hero in episode VI. I think that's what makes him just one of the best characters ever.
 
Oh, but we musn't question the POWER of James Earl Jones. Darth Vader is an amazing, unique character, because he's not the production of a single actor, but rather a collaboration of James Earl Jones, David Prowse, the costume designer, and the genius sound tech who came up the the breathing effect.

Because of this, and the fact that he's not REALLY the villian, I kind of have to seperate Darth into a seperate category titled "Simply Awesome for Various Complex Reasons".
 
Darth Vader is like the cultural symbol of evil.

In other news, next month I am actually going to a presentation at my university by James Earl Jones himself which just about makes me explode with joy. I'll have a hard time keeping myself under control just LISTENING to his voice. I better keep my eyes closed...
 
Originally posted by hoohaProductions:
haha. Hey, what you said up there is interesting...

Are you under the impression that you could be wrong as well? Because, I'm thinking about it... and the fact that everyone else I've talked to agrees that Joker is one of the top 3 villains of all time makes me consider the possibility that maybe... you're wrong. Just something to think about, I guess
icon_wink.gif
Click to expand...

No I'm right.
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An opinion is worthless if you don't believe it yourself.

Raging Bull deals with heroism in a real way with a very real goal for a very flawed character. It strips away the idea that the champion of the world (or someone who wants to be)is a better class of being and indeed can have major flaws. Remember, this movie came out right after Rocky, another great film that treated this goal as a way for a simple man to become great. The Dark Knight has a guy in a bat suit beating up bad guys. I will not concede that Raging Bull isn't better.

Clockwork Orange: See i was right! JK

Children of Men: Hey now I'm right again! (Ok now I'm being a jerk)

The Prestige: Questioning the superiority of truth is the entire core of this movie and is Nolans finest accomplishment. A superb film that wasn't handcuffed by a 180 million dollar interest to hit all the merchandising beats. Although a Tesla Coil in a Happy Meal might be the best idea ever. (I hope someone gets that reference.)

part of the overall problem with TDK is that it stretches itself WAY to thin by just barely scratching the surface of these themes then punctuating plot hole with explosions and toys.

Anyway at least we're staying civil.
 
Again, Raging Bull and The Dark Knight deal with very different concepts of heroism, so the comparison is irrelevant. TDK deconstructs the culture's classical interpretation of the hero: the ideals of self-sacrifice, of righteousness and opposing evil, of the steadfast pursuit of good and truth. That is NOT what Ragin Bull addresses.

I don't think the film stretches itself too thin. Most of these themes are heavily interconnected, and self-refrencing, and the film (which is long) effectively explores them within it's time limit. Indeed, that's my favorite aspect of the film - that, by the end, it's thematically cohesive and complete. The only other film I can think of that so perfectly controlled it's expansive thematic arcs is LOTR.
 
Originally posted by Cinematical:
Again, Raging Bull and The Dark Knight deal with very different concepts of heroism, so the comparison is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Stay on topic.

you asked me what films explore certain themes better. The theme you pointed out "the narcissistic nature of heroism" is indeed relevant to both and explored deeper and with a better mastery in Raging Bull because it is not mired in the absurd or splitting focus with gadgets and unrelated plot lines.
 

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