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Why original music "IS" important.........

jay888

Member
I posted this in another thread but I thought I should make it it's own as well.

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More importantly you are learning what it takes to work with "real" people, which in honesty is a lot more important than the actual music at this stage of the game.


In a few years time (of working with composers/musicians) you will have a leg up on the students that "chose" to just place pre-existing music. You will have gained knowledge as to what you "want" and what you "need" to make your films work. As well the trials of working with a composer... there's gonna be many fixes and dropped cues along the way.

You are thinking ahead, Mark! Good job!



GENERAL COMMENTS......

As a director (especially if you are indie... and cant afford a music supervisor) you need to have a clear vision of what the music needs to be. Sometimes the decision will rest solely on your shoulders as a no/low budget director. And sometimes there are no temp cues. In this case you need to be able to convey to the composer what it is you need from them... which often times involves specifics on instrumentation.


BTW... With the amount of kids using "joe-blow band" as the music for their films now, I'm curious as to what this will mean in the future for them when it's time to use "real" composers. They'll proba bly be a bit lost on the whole process. And that's not a good time to learn, when the clock is ticking and the meter running.


Obviously sometimes pre-existing works, but at least use original music... when you use hit songs the emotion is pre-established. So the emotion of your film is really stealing from that hit song. And that's not a good thing when you don't have a name for yourself, and no-one quite knows what your "voice' is as a director. Trust me it's way more powerful to use music no-one's ever heard. It's fresh and exciting. It's interesting and "NEW". Make people feel something new when they view your film. Especially if you have sights on the big league. Why? Because 10,000 other kids have films with the "SAME" songs you "chose"......... all these films now feel "THE SAME"...................... Think!


BTW... No-one in Hollywood is gonna take temp cues seriously. They wanna see that you can handle the pressures of a real film. There is tremendous pressure in this business. Yo u must be able to be creative while at the same time having someone breathing down your neck. "Hurry up and make a classic", so to speak. It's not easy..... (this should be obvious by the amount of films and directors you all hate)


* Remember this. In the "old days" there were no songs to download, so directors (like Spielberg e tc.) ha d to learn using the real thing. That was the "only" way back then. Just saying, taking short cuts now may hurt you in the long run. There are so many people willing to do music for you guys, use it! I really feel there is no excuse but to do o rig inal mus ic, even if it's not perfect (shoot, your film isn't perfect), but you are "learning" which is way more important "NOW".


There's a lot you need to know, filming is minor compared to the big picture. Technical aspects are a given, and really, ju st the be ginning. Play smart, you'll be glad you did.


Jay
 
I posted this in another thread but I thought I should make it it's own as well.

---------------------------------------------------


More importantly you are learning what it takes to work with "real" people, which in honesty is a lot more important than the actual music at this stage of the game.


In a few years time (of working with composers/musicians) you will have a leg up on the students that "chose" to just place pre-existing music. You will have gained knowledge as to what you "want" and what you "need" to make your films work. As well the trials of working with a composer... there's gonna be many fixes and dropped cues along the way.

You are thinking ahead, Mark! Good job!



GENERAL COMMENTS......

As a director (especially if you are indie... and cant afford a music supervisor) you need to have a clear vision of what the music needs to be. Sometimes the decision will rest solely on your shoulders as a no/low budget director. And sometimes there are no temp cues. In this case you need to be able to convey to the composer what it is you need from them... which often times involves specifics on instrumentation.


BTW... With the amount of kids using "joe-blow band" as the music for their films now, I'm curious as to what this will mean in the future for them when it's time to use "real" composers. They'll proba bly be a bit lost on the whole process. And that's not a good time to learn, when the clock is ticking and the meter running.


Obviously sometimes pre-existing works, but at least use original music... when you use hit songs the emotion is pre-established. So the emotion of your film is really stealing from that hit song. And that's not a good thing when you don't have a name for yourself, and no-one quite knows what your "voice' is as a director. Trust me it's way more powerful to use music no-one's ever heard. It's fresh and exciting. It's interesting and "NEW". Make people feel something new when they view your film. Especially if you have sights on the big league. Why? Because 10,000 other kids have films with the "SAME" songs you "chose"......... all these films now feel "THE SAME"...................... Think!


BTW... No-one in Hollywood is gonna take temp cues seriously. They wanna see that you can handle the pressures of a real film. There is tremendous pressure in this business. Yo u must be able to be creative while at the same time having someone breathing down your neck. "Hurry up and make a classic", so to speak. It's not easy..... (this should be obvious by the amount of films and directors you all hate)


* Remember this. In the "old days" there were no songs to download, so directors (like Spielberg e tc.) ha d to learn using the real thing. That was the "only" way back then. Just saying, taking short cuts now may hurt you in the long run. There are so many people willing to do music for you guys, use it! I really feel there is no excuse but to do o rig inal mus ic, even if it's not perfect (shoot, your film isn't perfect), but you are "learning" which is way more important "NOW".


There's a lot you need to know, filming is minor compared to the big picture. Technical aspects are a given, and really, ju st the be ginning. Play smart, you'll be glad you did.


Jay
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Make people feel something new when they view your film. Especially if you have sights on the big league. Why? Because 10,000 other kids have films with the "SAME" songs you "chose"......... all these films now feel "THE SAME"...................... Think! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't agree with this statement. The rest of the post I don't have an opinion.

I don't agree because a lot of people may use the same song...but not the same way. Anybody can just throw a song into B.G. music when two people are talking...but maybe that same song somewhere elese is being used in a sex scene....or an act of violence...or a credit sequence. The way a song usually sticks with me is when it is used originaly and makes the scene brillant. I could listen to a Britney Spears song if used correctly and artisticly in a film. Think of the love making song in "GHOST" ( I can't even remember the song title....but I think you all know) That song was used so perfectly...but look how many times its been used in other films...it doesn't work. Whenever I hear that song I see Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze making pottery then having sex. Sure a music score for a feature film like JAWS and JURASSIC PARK are great...but a film score and music by a singer or band is totally different. Each one catches its own different moods...most music scores never stick...think about how many movies have memorable original scores. A lot do, but most don't. A lot to me sound to similar...like they are trying to catch a dramatic moment and they think that throwing in a dramatic song will make it more dramatic than it really is. I'd rather use music by an artist rather than an original score. I don't know if I would be able to trust someone to write a score for me. What if you don't like it? Too bad...your stuck with it. I'd rather be able to select my own music...to me it also shows a little bit of yourself.

I think I kinda derailed on the subject...who cares.

TacoWagonProductions

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness
 
Thanks for the kind words, Jay888.

I can see where there are times to use previously recorded songs in a film. In fact I could probably name several scenes/movies where it works very well. But there are also a lot of films where the original score/song written for the film became popular. The quickest example I can think of is just about any JAMES BOND film.

On the other hand, having your own music for your own film is . . . well, kind of exciting for me! Someone wrote a song(s) just for my film.

For the short I did last year, the composer gave me a "proof" of what he had written and asked for changes/revisions. I had none. One, it was only a nine minute film and two, he did a great job! He watched the film without music, looked at my notes as to what I was looking for from each scene and wrote/composed the score.

I don't think you're 'stuck' if you don't like the end result - but that should be discussed before the process starts!

If I could write and compose music, I would do my own score (I'm a control freak!), but I can't, so I trust the musicians/composers.

I can see where both work, but if I have a choice, I'm going with original music every time. It's more work and COULD cost more, but it seems more professional . . . and exciting!

Just an opinion. Great topic, by-the-way!

Mark M
Scooter Productions
 
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>a lot of people may use the same song...but not the same way. Anybody can just throw a song into B.G. music when two people are talking...but maybe that same song somewhere elese is being used in a sex scene....or an act of violence...or a credit sequence<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on this. If a song is used in a different way in different movies, I can deal with it, as long as it is used correctly. I don't wanna hear Duel of the Fates (which has been used waaaaay too much) during a shot of two people having a conversation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>most music scores never stick...think about how many movies have memorable original scores. A lot do, but most don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...but the reason certain movie scores stick is because they are written so brilliantly. I have never found myself thinking Gee, I loved how they pieced together all the unoriginal songs so greatly. I don't think it can be half as good as a score written for the movie. Even if a prewritten song that has never been used in any other movies is placed perfectly in a scene, I think a composer (a good one) could do it better. He will have an understanding of what needs to fit and will mold his music around the scene. You can't do that with anything else.

Pointgravity Productions
 
Personally, I think music in films are overused tremendously; I hate films where the music is omnipresent and you can't even think.
Original music can be very riveting and emotional, but it was kubrick who said (not an exact quote...) while original composers may be talented, they are no bethoveen or mozart, or brahms, etc. The point being that there is already so much good music out there.
 
One more thing...

I think this little dispute or whatever it is will always remain the same, because you have to be a musician to understand certain things that we are saying. Nothing against those who aren't musicians, but it's a lot harder for you to comprehend what we mean.

Pointgravity Productions
 
Ya gotta look at films by Martin Scorsese and Quentin Tarantino. If you took the music out of their films and replaced them with an original film score...the films wouldn't be as memorable...think of Reservoir Dogs and the ear amputation scene...you can't score that...imagine Mr. Blonde turning on the radio and that's the film score...it would be overdramatic and horrifying sounding...it would go against the whole point of the scene...whereas "Stuck in the Middle with You" is perfect because it doesn't create any drama or tension...it's just a random song that happened to be on the radio when Blonde was preparing to slice the cop.

Martin Scorsese is brillant with his choices...he'll pick the most random songs and make them so awesome (Even though I feel he went overboard in CASINO with all the music he chose)

I think there are times when a score is needed and it isn't...I think it basically depends on the director.

TacoWagonProductions

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness
 
I always like to pick my music, rather then have it composed...

until I can get ahold of rza.

fc32b361.jpg
 
I have never seen a film by Quentin Tarantino. I know, I know...I've gotta start going to the store and renting a bunch of 'em and seeing that there is definitely more out there than Stephen Speilberg. I'll go see some of his movies and then I can start understanding what you like so much about him.

Pointgravity Productions
 
You've NEVER seen a Tarantino film???? He's the best (everyone has their opinion...so maybe you won't think he's the best...even though he is.) You gotta see Pulp Fiction...I can't believe you havn't!!!! Holy COW!!!! Go rent it, NOW. It'll inspire you like nothing else...it's different, original, & loads of fun for the whole family! (Well, maybe not the little kids. Last thing we need in this society is a little kids saying, "I'm a mushroom cloud laying motherf*****, motherf****!") Sheesh...see his movies...I GUARANTEE YOU'LL LIKE THEM. MAYBE EVEN LOVE.

And if you havn't seen a Martin Scorsese movie...I'll have to kill you.
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TacoWagonProductions

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness
 
Let me brake it down a bit....



First of all, I should not have used the word "pre-existing" that was misleading. More specifically I meant music from "Commercial CD's" (for more reasons than creative).


"The Same".... I think you took that statement too literally. It may feel "different" to you, but to seasoned professionals it will come across as "Amateur Hour". It will come across as "Oh another kid that got hold of his parents camcorder and shot his friends acting like fools then slapped on a track from kazza in hopes of fooling me into thing this is a film" (That's isn't the reaction you want.. why bother with that when you don't need to?) But hey, I don't mean to be too harsh on you guys. I know you are trying to find your way. I'm just t rying to save you time.... The more you begin to recognize and cut out predictable "amateurish" traits, the closer you are to the reality of making a great film. That is the reality. You may not see my point though, and just think I'm picking on you?


Sure big films use "source cues and songs", but they always have underscore too. It would have to be close to 95% of the time, no matter the budget! Go back and listen to all the films you listed and see what I mean. Anyway... "underscore" is just part of making a real film. It doesn't need to be orchestral, it could be hardcore - rap- dark electronic- whatever (depends on the film) . The point is, it was written for the scene and punctuates the film, sometimes in an extremely subtle way, sometimes not. Th e chances of you taking on a film career and only using "songs" is highly unlikely, in fact it doesn't work like that. But you'll figure that out in time....


But let's talk about "source cues and songs". I'm not telling you all not to use "songs" of coa rse
songs are part of film (That's part of what the music supervisors job consists of... licensing songs to use in the film). What I'm saying is, use "Original" songs if you're gonna use 'em. Songs no one has heard. Why? Because it will lend a bit of cre dibility to you and your film. How? Because everyone has access to the unlicensed songs, it screams "HI I'M AN AMATEUR BUT I WANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY" BTW.. it's illegal too, but that's beside the point. It comes across as l azy, "why didn't this guy, if he is a serious film maker, use original music"? That will be the question. Especially since you have all this freedom to use any type of music imaginable. If you intend to have critical or financial successes "original music" is part of the game.


BTW... Song choice in big budget film often has to do with the politics of the business as well, it's not always so straight forward. The reason why big films use hit songs is because the can afford it. As well the film may be pac kaged by a specific agency that wants to try and place one of their bands. I'll save the politics and complexities of "the deal" for a latter date.


Anyway...


Most of this doesn't necessarily apply to a great many of you (some it does) until you are doing a real film (in a sense). Meaning; if you are in high school (or younger), it may perhaps be more hassle than it's really worth --- trying to find original music and working with composers (or your friend that has Acid... but at least you're learning). There really is a fine line. If "film" for you basically boils down to "just a fun hobby", that's one thing, but if you do intend to someday be a serious contender in the film world, that's quite another. If the answer is serious contender, you may as w ell start learning now (like I said before). By the time you get to college it would be a good idea to be "only" using original music. Why? Because that is the way it's gonna be when you start doing real films. You aren't gonna immediately be in the posit ion to license a bunch of music for your first film "with distribution"...... Do you follow?


To respond more specifically to some of your statements:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Whenever I hear that song I see Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze making pottery then having sex. Sure a music score for a feature film like JAWS and JURASSIC PARK are great...but a film score and music by a singer or band is totally different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right! One is called "source, or songs" the other is called "underscore". Each have their place.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>most music s cores never stick...think about how many movies have memorable original scores. A lot do, but most don't. A lot to me sound to similar...like they are trying to catch a dramatic moment and they think that throwing in a dramatic song will make it more dram atic than it really is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The underscore is meant to (usually) be "felt" but not "heard". Meaning it creeps in and out. Most of the time the viewing audience isn't even aware that it's there. That's how films "work" on a creative level. Other time s you may want something more "IN YOUR FACE" (and for that you "may" want to use a song). It all depends on the film as well as the scene.Again, the underscore can be whatever you want it to be. Usually there is both.....


But you did p ick up on somethi ng many miss. That is when directors second guess some of the scenes after it's cut. Then decide that more scenes than necessary "NEED" music. That is basically the director being insecure with the film. In a sense they feel it's too nake d..... Sometimes that is the reason why some films have way too much music. If you hear way too much music, chances are also that the studio thinks the film sucks and are trying to hide the fact that the film can't carry itself with out the extra music fi lling the gaps in the...... um? Script? Directing? Whatever the problem is.....


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd rather use music by an artist rather than an original score<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great, just do it legally if you plan on doing anything with it. But! At some point you'll begin to realize "why" songs don't "always" work. Most of the time they just don't fit.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't know if I would be able to trust someone to write a score for me. What if you don't like it? Too bad...your stuck with it. I'd rather be able to select my own music...to me it also shows a little bit of yourself. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, in time you'll understand why that statement is completely false. But I'll say this in the meantime. Again, eventually you'll hire a composer because you will start to understan d why your fil m needs one. At some point every director has to "trust" the composer. (The reason many directors use the same guys over, and over, and over...? TRUST!) Stuck? You aren't "stuck" with anything. As a director you work with the composer to realize your vis ion of the score (again it could be any type of music). The process "usually", no in fact "always", involves many changes to the music along the way. Many cues may get "dropped". It's rare that a composer nails a cue the first time.... that's just the way it is. There may be one note, or a sound the director doesn't like... so it gets taken out. Etc. Etc.



Finally, you "show a little bit about yourself" (in bigger films, meaning even a $50k budget) by the composer you hire. That says a lot about your vi sion for the film.


*BTW...This post mostly applies to the people getting ready to do bigger festivals or features. But the sooner you apply it to your no budget films, the sooner you will understand what it takes to do a real film... I do realize that some of you already understand this.


As always, it's your call......


Jaya

[

[This message was edited by jay888 on May 20, 2003 at 06:48 PM.]
 
Hey, I'm only 16 and I first saw Pulp Fiction when I was...either 13 or 14...it was edited for TV, but when I was watching it I thought it was crazy as hell...so I saw it on video a couple months later...that movie alone inspired me to write and want to make films. See it.

TacoWagonProductions

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness
 
Ok, I understand that post more that your first one. Your right...the whole getting a score for your film to be taken more seriousely...makes more sense. I do understand that most of my future projects will probably need an original score from a composer...I understand.

TacoWagonProductions

"Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun." - Bruce Cambell in Army of Darkness
 
Cool!

Don't be afraid to listen sometimes too, Kyle! Think, but also listen... Take what you need and apply it to "your vision" of what film should be.
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It's the old saying of "learn the rules so you can then break them"!
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Pulp Fiction? I saw it in the theater..... I went to the premiere!
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"It's 30 minutes away... I'll be there in 10" My favorite line!


Jayy
 
Just a question, Jay, but do you have any links to any movies you have ever scored or anything? I am interested in seeing some of your work.

Pointgravity Productions
 
pgPyro-

Actually, I'd like to sort of stay anonymous. But just so you know I haven't done any big films or TV shows. A lot of people I know have, but I'm still low budget... need to find that one director that can take me to the next level.


But while it's on my mind. If you want to hear the cues for the last short film I did I'll post them (that's the best I can do). Let me know? The film I'm told is almost complete (audio sweetening etc.), but it wont be posted here. I guess the director is planing on trying to get the festival thing going... not really sure. He'll call me for the screening... that's all I know right now. I know he left town recently to finish two scripts. He is planning on doing a feature in the quarter mil range next. I'll be doing the music. ;-) He's working with a very esteemed writer/director to try and "punch
it up" so to speak.


Where was I? Anyway I don't think I'd ever post a link here to something that could come back at me. You never know who you are pissing off in these forums, so I don't want some dude thinking it's funny to try and cause trouble for me because they don't like what I have to say.

I like being on the fringe here... I really shouldn't even be here, but I stick around.


Sorry, I can't be more open in this regard. Hope you understand.

Jay

[This message was edited by jay888 on May 22, 2003 at 12:15 AM.]
 
Damn you guys...now I have to go get a better chair to sit and read all that...oh well the mind won't teach its self.

I hate film...all I want to do is yell "ACTION"
 

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