The Dark Knight

[braininabox]

Roy, I agree with most of your positions, but once again, I'm going to have to ask you to refrain from making derogatory personal remarks. You have great insights, but come on man, you know the guidelines.

Cinematical is an intelligent, talented guy. If he wants to think Batman is an influential, memorable classic...I guess we will just have to wait 20 years and see who is right.

 

[Cinematical]

Simply remember that the same people who voted The Godfather, Pulp Fiction, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest into the top 10 on IMDB (which you seem to have no problem with, at least in agreeing to the recognized quality of the films) also voted The Dark Knight to the #1 spot. The people who do vote on the site tend to be the cinematically informed. The film will probably eventually drop as time goes on, but still...it has 200,000 votes and hasn't dropped yet. Rationalize as much as you want, but that's a significant indicator of popularity. As is (yet again) the continued buzz and financial momentum of the movie. Denying the film's immense popularity doesn't change the fact that it's immensely popular.

And while The Dark Knight will probably never reach the impact level of, say, Star Wars, Titanic, or LOTR, but it will certainly be studied. It has the trappings of a film that could ignite a slew of young individuals into becoming filmmakers.

 

[Uxbridge]

Simply remember that the same people who voted The Godfather, Pulp Fiction, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest into the top 10 on IMDB (which you seem to have no problem with, at least in agreeing to the recognized quality of the films) also voted The Dark Knight to the #1 spot. The people who do vote on the site tend to be the cinematically informed.

There I must speak up. You have no data to back that up - at all.

But remember this: the *reason* it's at the #1 spot is not because of seasoned film critics who thought it was brilliant. In fact, every local newspaper where I lived said it was completely in the average-good range and none of them were full of praise.

It's in that spot because over-zealous fans rated in 10/10 and gave other top-rated films (like the Godfather) a 1/10.

The people who do vote on the site tend to be the cinematically informed.

Wrong. Most people on that site vote, and there are plenty of horrible films with occasional 9's to prove exactly that. If your statement was true, that would imply that *most* people on that site are cinematically informed, which couldn't possibly be further from the truth.

It has the trappings of a film that could ignite a slew of young individuals into becoming filmmakers.

The last thing we need is a generation of filmmakers who want to make over-preachy comic book movies.

 

[Forsakenproductions]

Good Lord! You guys are still talking about this?!

I think I'm going to go MAKE a movie, not sit around and talk about them.

Here's the thing: In a summer of bad movies (Mama Mia) movies like The Dark Knight are going to shine, maybe too much, but they will shine.

And the fact that the late Heath Ledger broke his stereotypical pretty boy roll to create a psychotic, iconic villain is enough draw to the movie in itself.

Has the movie been blown out of proportion? yes. But I think movies like Citizen Kane, Pulp Fiction, and Godfather have been blown out of proportion to because "Seasoned film crtics" and our film teachers tell us they are good. Not to say those movies AREN'T good, but you have to admit they get talked about way too much, most often by people who haven't even seen/understood them.

The Dark Knight is loved by a ton of people and it made a ton of money and in the end, that's what the movie business is all about.

 

[Roy Hatts]

Thank you Uxbridge, because my next post would have gotten me banned. Cinematical seems to refuse to actually hear what I'm saying.

I'm not even debating about this silly movie anymore. I'm debating how important popularity and IMDB voting is. Neither are important- at all. Godfather is a great film because of its merits. I'm not looking at the IMDB top 250 and just agreeing with it. For a while No Country for Old Men was in the top ten, or top twenty or something. I love that movie to death, but there's no way I think that film even touches the 100 films of all time, much less the top ten or twenty, and I don't somehow think the film is better or worse for topping critics lists or winning 4 major oscars. I frankly don't give a **** about any of that.

And let me just add that God help us for the generation of filmmakers who are primarily influenced by The Dark Knight. Look at how much damage Lucas and Tarantino have done to our peers.


Oh, and Forsaken, yes, Godfather has been culturally exhausted and it's hard to watch it without feeling tired since it has been done to death with parodies, etc.



But dear god, do not question Citizen Kane's greatness. I beg you. If there's one film no one should argue over, it's that one.

 

[Cinematical]

1) I'm not trying to say IMDB is perfect. It has obvious flaws (starting with Pulp Fiction, Shawshank Redemption, and, yes, The Dark Knight being anywhere near the top 10). But you don't seem to understand their ratings system - it's not just a simple average:

"IMDb publishes weighted vote averages rather than raw data averages. Various filters are applied to the raw data in order to eliminate and reduce attempts at 'vote stuffing' by individuals more interested in changing the current rating of a movie than giving their true opinion of it."

They also only count the votes of regular voters when calculating the top 250 list.

2) According to RottenTomatoes, The Dark Knight received a 94% positive review score, with an average rating of 8.5/10. For comparison's sake, No Country for Old Men received a 95% and 8.6/10, There Will Be Blood a 92% and 8.4/10, and The Departed a 92% and 8.2/10.

"Christopher Nolan's “The Dark Knight” is a haunted film that leaps beyond its origins and becomes an engrossing tragedy."
-Roger Ebert, Chicago Sun-Times

"The haunting and visionary Dark Knight soars on the wings of untamed imagination."
-Peter Travers, Rolling Stone

"This film is not only one of the year's best; it may well end up as the finest of 2008. At the very least, it deserves consideration for Best Picture and Best Director, along with the expected Oscar kudos for Ledger."
-Peter Howell, Toronto Star

3) Many film historians and theorists have questioned the position and acclaim that our culture affords Citizen Kane. The primary reason it has such vaulted status is not because the of film's inherent merit, but because it was stylistically and thematically lightyears ahead of the rest of the American film industry; it was a modernist film released in the classical stage of American filmmaking. This is why respect for the film and Orson Welles grew so much over time: as the industry progressed, everyone noticed that Citizen Kane had been a mile ahead for decades. But there are many that have, and continue, to question the actual quality of the film (within the context of discussing the greatest films of all time). I bring all this up because many people do tend to name drop the movie as a measure of excellence, even perfection, without understanding the contentions over its status.

 

[REDking]

The movie has had 0 cultural impact.

 

[braininabox]

As far as Best Picture Oscars are concerned, the Academy picked:

Chicago over The Two Towers (2002)

A Beautiful Mind over Fellowship of The Ring (2001)

American Beauty over The Sixth Sense (1999)

Shakespeare in Love over Saving Private Ryan (1998)

Ghandi over E.T. (1982)

Chariots of Fire over Raiders(1981)

Annie Hall over Star Wars (1977)

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest over Jaws (1975)


I think its safe to say that The Academy doesn't regard massively popular popcorn flicks all that highly. I guess you could bring up Return of The King, but how on earth could you lose when your biggest competitors are Seabiscuit/Master and Commander.

 

[Roy Hatts]

Cinematical, what are you trying to prove? I know The Dark Knight is popular. I never was arguing that is isn't insanely popular. I know lots of critics liked and loved it. So?

Lots of critics liked and loved Little Miss Sunshine and you'll find tons of people who will argue why that film is terribly shallow.

And the imdb system is still terrible. And I'd like to hear your argument against Citizen Kane if you have one for some reason. It's not my personal favorite movie, but it's still an amazing film that deserves everything it gets- just because it's no longer "ahead of it's time" makes no difference.

 

[braininabox]

Haha

 

[Cinematical]

Haha, very good.

Obviously The Dark Knight wont win Best Picture - there is (as you demonstrated) an obvious bias against big blockbusters, regardless of whether or not they're actually the best picture. The two major times I can think of a blockbuster winning recently (Titanic and Return of the King) were probably because the films were SO successful - financially, culturally, etc - that the Academy couldn't ignore them without looking irrelevant. I don't think The Dark Knight will reach that level of prominence, and so the Academy will pass on it. But to say the film has not had or will not have any cultural impact is simply ignorant. Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

As for Return of the King, it's main "competition" (I use that term lightly, because there probably isn't any film that could have been released that year and prevented the academy from giving Peter Jackson all the marbles) was Lost in Translation. Now THAT is a stark contrast. But I really should refrain from getting into a discussion about LOTR - you know what'll happen if I do.

 

[Cinematical]

I also don't know if I'd define Saving Private Ryan as a popcorn flick...

 

[Roy Hatts]

Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

Heath Ledger's performance...cinematic legend.[/quote]


Someone please lock this stupid thread already. I can hear my brain screaming and my eyes crawling out of my skull.

 

[Rosco Shagnasty]

Originally posted by Cinematical:
Haha, very good.

Obviously The Dark Knight wont win Best Picture - there is (as you demonstrated) an obvious bias against big blockbusters, regardless of whether or not they're actually the best picture. The two major times I can think of a blockbuster winning recently (Titanic and Return of the King) were probably because the films were SO successful - financially, culturally, etc - that the Academy couldn't ignore them without looking irrelevant. I don't think The Dark Knight will reach that level of prominence, and so the Academy will pass on it. But to say the film has not had or will not have any cultural impact is simply ignorant. Heath Ledger's performance alone has already become the stuff of cinematic legend.

How naive are you? The academy does not have a bias against blockbuster films. Lines like this never occur in their thoughts or discussions: "You know, that movie drew a huge crowd and was pretty dang good, but let's just give the award to this other movie for kicks and giggles..." Being a blockbuster has NOTHING to do with the academy's decision on its awards. Is it true that blockbusters usually don't get best picture? Yes. This is not due to a bias, but films with TRUE cinematic genius behind them, such as There Will Be Blood, tend to come from almost nowhere and are not hyped by one huge fanbase. LOTR, SW, Batman all have one thing in common. They have a massive fanbase. This is what drives them to be blockbusters. Can you say that for most of the academy winners? Not usually.

 

[braininabox]

Originally posted by Rosco Shagnasty:
How naive are you? The academy does not have a bias against blockbuster films.

Lol, did you see that list that I posted above? We all know The Academy doesn't have an official bias against blockbusters, but in general the types of movies that have the capabilities of hauling in enormous profits generally do not have the qualities that The Academy is looking for.

So technically there is no bias, but practically there is.

 

[Cinematical]

To think that the Academy doesn't have biases shows a lack of understanding of the how the Academy works. Braininabox demonstrated it well: ET, Raiders, Star Wars, and Fellowship were all much more important (and, save for possibly Star Wars, were better) than the films that won. There's a great deal of politics in the Academy's system that produces all sorts of biases - no one may outright think it, but they arise. This board gives an example of this particular bias: there's such a swell of positive, even fanatical, opinion about The Dark Knight that those who weren't completely enamored with the film become set against it. People very often react negatively towards popularity. It should also be noted that this bias tends most heavily towards films with fantasy elements. Combine the two - fantasy and fans - and the Academy will usually turn a blind eye to the movie.

And where is the rule written that cinematic genius comes from obscure places? That's an utterly incorrect corellation. Quality comes from all sectors of the film industry.

And Roy, do you disagree? You may find the thought of Ledger's performance attaining such status sickening, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter. The film's hype, Ledger's death, and the legitmate merit of the performance (though it might not be icon-good) create a perfect storm. Ledger is this generation's Jimmy Dean. Our culture soaks up tradgedy, especially if you can combine it with an extremely popular film and performance.

 

[REDking]

There are simply no out and out rules about what type of film wins best picture every year. It's simply a question of what studio campaigns harder and tampers with the academy members the most. Every year its a crap shoot, but I'll tell you this, a batman sequeal that's had NO cultural influence certainly dosn't deserve an Oscar.

Lets not for get that Eric Roberts is in this movie, he's like Osacar repellant!

 

[karen]

I understood that people in the industry use a tremendous amount of self-promotion to bring their projects to the Academy's attention and that those who have the most creative, assertive presentations can influence the voting process.

 

[Cinematical]

That's true, the campaigns do have quite a bit to do with the whole process. The entire thing is so politicized and the dynamics really are interesting.

But RED, come on now, saying the film has had no cultural influence is just wrong. Whether or not it's good is up for debate (and we should take into account that the film has been out for only a few weeks), but it's certainly made an impact. Actually, come to think of it, the immense hype and build up to the film is significant enough by itself.

 

[braininabox]

I guess The Dark Knight could potentially walk away with the Best Picture Award due to just a lack of competition, depending on how well Curious Case and Milk turn out.

But I really do have high hopes for Milk, and I love Gus Van Sant. I'm really hoping he picks up either Best Picture or Best Director. Especially since he really got ripped off on Good Will Hunting, considering it was released the same year as Titanic.